In my experience Adventists have a number of misunderstandings on the law. As an example our minister gave our church a quiz entitled "Are you a Protestant or a Catholic?" with the answers being either Protestant or Catholic answers, and everyone answered Catholic answers!

I posted the same questions to this list and the "traditional" Adventists have also answered as "Catholics", despite Adventists being the "heirs" of the Reformation!

To promote some debate on the role of the law in Adventism I have posted a number of lengthy discussions on the law which can be found in this newsgroup.

During the discussions I kept getting the feeling I was repeating myself. I checked and discovered this was the case. One example is the Gospel of John, where the terms "commandments" and "law" have very specific (and opposing) meanings. I have made this point many times but it seems to get ignored and someone will quote "commandments" in John as referring to the law.

To hopefully avoid this repetition and move the debate forward I have come up with a list of 21 items I regularly mention in discussions but which get overlooked.

It would be interesting to hear some responses to them.

It is claimed by the Dual Law people that the Sabbath at creation was an "evening and morning" Sabbath, and such a Sabbath will be kept in the New Earth.

Is 66:23 "from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD."

This is often given as a proof text of the Evening/Morning Sabbath being kept in the new earth. However it also includes a reference to the New Moon festival, which Christian's don't keep. When I pointed out the reference to the New Moon festival Jose claimed it wasn't a festival ("I don't see any festival here John"), and when I then referred him to other parts of Isaiah which refer to the New Moon festival nothing more was said. Posted on
24 Oct - "texts on the ten commandments"
16 Oct - The Ten Commandments and the Covenant
4 Oct - Re: SABBATH
4 Oct - Re: What Seventh-day Adventist are you?
2 Oct - On Evening and Morning Sabbaths

On 21st September I posted a series of questions which distinguish Protestantism from Catholicism. Since we were discussing the law it seemed useful to check if those participating in the discussion were "Protestants" or "Catholics". For 4 weeks there was no reply, then Jose posted an "amen" to a reply which scored mostly for a Catholic view of the law. Since then nothing has been heard. Posted on
24 Oct - Re: "the law" - REPOST: Are you a Protestant or a Catholic?
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - REPOST: Are you a Protestant or a Catholic?
21 Sep - Are you a Protestant or a Catholic?

Jose has repeatedly quoted from Exodus where God writes the Ten Commandments, arguing that this makes them eternal and applicable to all mankind. I have repeatedly said that such a description is not found in Scripture. Instead the Bible says the Ten Commandments were written by God and are special because they are "the words of the covenant", the central agreement between God and Israel. Jose has not responded to this. Posted on
24 Oct - "texts on the ten commandments"
24 Oct - reply to criticisms
24 Oct - Re: "the law" - REPOST: the law and the Sabbath
24 Oct - Re: "the law" - Why the Ten Commandments are Special
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - REPOST: the law and the Sabbath
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - "texts" on the ten commandments
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - the arguments
16 Oct - The Ten Commandments and the Covenant
9 Oct - Re: Keeping the Sabbath
21 Sep - Re: Law of Moses and the Law of God
18 Sep - The Sabbath! At last the Truth!
26 Aug - Re: Do we need to obey the Ten Commandments?

Many have given quotes on "the law" that they unquestioningly apply to the ten commandments. I have shown repeatedly that the term "the law" is used to refer to the TORAH, the whole law of Moses, no one has ever responded to these arguments.
Posted on
24 Oct "the law" - reply to criticisms
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - REPOST: the law and the Sabbath
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - "texts" on the ten commandments
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - the arguments
16 Oct - The Ten Commandments and the Covenant
9 Oct - Re: Keeping the Sabbath
4 Oct - RE: SABBATH
4 Oct - Re: Law of Moses and the Law of God
26 Sep - Re: What is Seventh-day Adventism?
21 Sep - Re: Law of Moses and the Law of God
18 Sep - The Sabbath! At last the Truth!
26 Aug - Re: Do we need to obey the Ten Commandments?

Often those arguing for the ten commandments applying to gentiles say the TORAH is divided into the "moral law" and the "ceremonial law". I have shown that these terms do not appear in Scripture and that the Bible never divides the law in this fashion. Indeed it goes against the whole concept of a covenant with Israel, whole details are contained in the book of the law, whose agreement is signed by God in the words of the covenant, and which is kept in the ark of the covenant. No one has shown the law can be separated from the covenant.
Posted on
24 Oct "the law" - reply to criticisms
24 Oct Re: "the law" - REPOST: the law and the Sabbath
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - "texts" on the ten commandments
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - the arguments
16 Oct - The Ten Commandments and the Covenant
9 Oct - Re: Keeping the Sabbath
4 Oct - Re: Law of Moses and the Law of God
21 Sep - Re: Law of Moses and the Law of God
26 Aug - Re: Do we need to obey the Ten Commandments?

Some argue for applying the ten commandments to gentiles by quoting Jesus telling the rich young ruler how to gain eternal life - "keep the commandments". However Jesus telling a Jew to keep the TORAH does not make them applicable to gentiles. No one has responded to this obvious fact.
Posted on
24 Oct "the law" - reply to criticisms
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - the arguments
18 Sep - The Sabbath! At last the Truth!

This text is often cited in defence of the ten commandments, however the term "law and the prophets" is just another way of referring to the Old Testament. I have pointed out that saying "Jesus does not destroy the Old Testament, he fulfils it" makes perfect sense and certainly does not imply the ten commandments apply to gentiles, but this has not been responded to. Following this text comes the phrase "one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" which is just another way of saying the same thing.
Posted on
24 Oct "the law" - reply to criticisms
24 Oct - Re: "the law" - Misunderstandings
18 Sep - The Sabbath! At last the Truth!

This is a strange claim, although often made. This simply denies the text "it was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant" (Deut 5:3). and no one has responded to this fact.
Posted on
24 Oct "the law" - reply to criticisms
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - "texts" on the ten commandments
9 Oct - Re: Keeping the Sabbath
26 Aug - Re: Do we need to obey the Ten Commandments?

Quotes from John, where Jesus says "keep my commandments" are cited as referring to the ten commandments. However I have often pointed out that "the law" and "commandments" in John mean two totally different things. Law always refers to the Jewish TORAH, "commandments" to Jesus new commandments. No one has replied to this fact.

The law refers to the old covenant, it is the law of Moses: "the law was given through Moses" (1:17), "Moses wrote about in the law" (1:45), "it is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat" (5:10), "has not Moses given you the law, yet not one of you keeps the law" (7:19), "the law of Moses" (7:23), "this mob knows nothing of the law" (7:49), "the teachers of the law" (8:3), "in the law Moses commanded us to stone..." (8:5), "we have heard from the law that the Messiah will remain forever" (12:34), "we have a law and according to that law he must die" (19:17), "judge him by your own law" (18:31).

But "command" is the new commandment of Christ: "a new commandment I give you: love one another" (13:34), "if you love me you will obey what I command" (14:15), "whoever has my commands and obeys me, he is the one who loves me" (14:21), "I do exactly what my Father has commanded me" (14:31), "if you obey my commands you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love" (15:10), "my command is this: love each other as I have loved you" (15:12), "you are my friends if you do what I command" (15:14), "this is my command, love one another" (15:17), "this command I received from my Father" (10:18), "for I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know his command leads to eternal life" (12:49-50).

Indeed, John shows that "the law" belongs to the Jews and has nothing to do with the new age, "the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" (John 1:17), the Jews speak of "our law" (7:51), Jesus calls it "your own law" (8:17) and "your law" (10:34), hence Jesus new commandment of love is for Christians under the new covenant, the old covenant of the law of Moses is passed away. These meanings of "law" and "command" are repeated in John's writings: "we can be sure we know him if we obey his commands, the man who says 'I know him' but does not do what he commands is a liar" (1 John 2:3-4, see 1 John 2:7-8, 3:21,23-24,4:21,5:2-3, 2 John 1:4-6, also Revelation "keep God's commandments" Rev 12:17,14:12). So although "commandment" ("entole" in the Greek) is generally synonymous with "law" ("nomos" in the Greek) in the New Testament, this is not the case in the writings of John. As we have seen above, in John the term "law" and "commandments" are used to have specifically different meanings. It is misleading to simply quote "commandments" from John and imply it is used in the same sense as the rest of the New Testament. In particular, it most certainly is *not* the same as the Jewish law!
Posted on
24 Oct "the law" - reply to criticisms
24 Oct - Re: "the law" - "texts" on the ten commandments (posted to Jose)
16 Oct - Re: Law of Moses and the Law of God
9 Oct - Re: Keeping the Sabbath
4 Oct - Re: What Seventh-day Adventist are you?
2 Oct - On Evening and Morning Sabbaths

This Psalm with its praise for the law is often cited as being in praise of the ten commandments. However I have shown that "the law" refers to the TORAH, the Psalmist is praising the covenant between God and Israel ("he remembers his covenant for ever" (Ps 111:5)). This has not been responded to.
Posted on
24 Oct "the law" - reply to criticisms
9 Oct - Re: Keeping the Sabbath

"This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus" (also And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev. 12:17)

I have pointed out that the writings of John always refer to "commandments" to mean Christ's new commandment to love one another. They use the term "law" to refer to the law of the Old Testament. The term "law" is never used in Revelation. I have not had a response to this.
Postings
24 Oct - Re: "the law" - Misunderstandings
24 Oct - Re: "the law" - "texts" on the ten commandments (posted to Jose)
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - "texts" on the ten commandments
9 Oct - Re: Keeping the Sabbath
2 Oct - On Evening and Morning Sabbaths
21 Sep - Re: Law of Moses and the Law of God
26 Aug - Re: Do we need to obey the Ten Commandments?

Examples:
Rom. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
It is claimed in examples such as the above that Paul used the term "the law" to refer to the Ten Commandments. However studying Paul's writings reveals that by "the law" he means the whole TORAH. He associates the law with the covenant made with Israel ("Gentiles, who do not have the law" Rom 2:14; Jews "have been entrusted with the very words of God" (Rom 3:1); "the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship" (Rom 9:4); "the law, introduced 430 years later" (Gal 3:17), "one covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves" (Gal 4:24) etc). No one has substantiated the claim that Paul uses the term "the law" to only refer to the Ten Commandments.
Postings
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - "texts" on the ten commandments
9 Oct - Re: Keeping the Sabbath
26 Aug - Re: Do we need to obey the Ten Commandments?

Jose claimed: "Your selective use of the Word Torah to encompass both is not doing just to the translation."
I have demonstrated that "TORAH" is by far the most common Hebrew word for law, for example, here are the various Hebrew words translated as "law" in the Old Testament:
18 DATH
4 CHOQ
1 CHAQAQ
1 MITSVAH
1 MISHPAT
215 TORAH
By far the most common term is TORAH. The only possible contender to TORAH meaning Law is DATH, which is used to refer to the general principle of 'law', as in laws of other nations, for example, these texts are all translations of DATH into "law":
"let it be written in the laws of Persia and Media" (Es 1:19)
"laws of the Medes and Persians" (Dan 6:8)
"laws of Medes and Persians" (Dan 6:12)
TORAH is always the word used in the books of the Law to translate "law".

For the Greek:

1 agoraios
183 nomos
1 nomikos
1 paranomeo
1 krima
3 krino
1 nomotheteo (receive the law)
1 anomia (lawlessness)
1 ennomos (under the)
4 anomos (without law)

"nomos" is the equivalent to TORAH. So there is no "translation" problem here either.

Postings
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - the arguments
4 Oct - Re: What is Seventh-day Adventism?

Jesus kept the Sabbath, showing he kept the Ten Commandments.

The texts cited show that Jesus used the Sabbath as a day of worship (he "went into the synagogue, as was his custom" (Luke 4:16)), however the fourth commandment does not say to keep the Sabbath as a day of worship, but as a day of rest, so these texts do not actually support the claim. In any case, Jesus, being a Jew, not only attended the synagogue but was circumcised (Luke 2:21-24) - are we to follow this example also? There has been no reply to this response.

Postings
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - the arguments
16 Oct - Re: Law of Moses and the Law of God
2 Oct - On Evening and Morning Sabbaths
26 Aug - Re: Do we need to obey the Ten Commandments?

It is claimed Jesus used the term "law of Moses" to refer to the ceremonial law, see for example Matthew 19:7-9 on divorce, in which the law of Moses can be changed.

Jesus does not use the term "law of Moses" in this text. Jesus compares the law given through Moses with how it was in "the beginning", so he is not comparing the (eternal) Ten Commandments and the (temporal) Ceremonial Law, but one part of the books of the law (Genesis) with another (Exodus). Jesus immediately following this text quotes from the law "love your neighbour as yourself" (Matt 19:19; Lev 19:18) - not in the Ten Commandments and "honour your father and mother" (Matt 19:19; Ex 20:12), which is. So Jesus happily mixes the Ten Commandments and the rest of the law together. Jesus often refers to "the law and the prophets" (Matt 5:17; Matt 7:12; Matt 11:13; Matt 22:40) showing he treated "the law" in the traditional Jewish manner as the books of Moses.

Postings
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - the arguments
2 Oct - On Evening and Morning Sabbaths
18 Sep - The Sabbath! At last the Truth!
26 Aug - Re: Do we need to obey the Ten Commandments?

Jose claimed that in Romans 7 Paul refers to two laws, "God's law" and the "law at work in the members of my body". This supports the dual law theory.

I have argued that Paul uses the term "the law" the same as other writers in the Bible, to refer to the TORAH, the covenant with Israel. There has been no response.

Postings
20 Oct - Re: "the law" - the arguments

Jose writes:
"However I do not wish to engage you in argument over this issue because you have turned it into a matter of semantics. Whether you wish to call the law a "whole" law or a law of separate laws is of little significance, it is still the law of God."
Rick has also made similar claims.

A semantic difference means we agree on the basic issues but are arguing over terminology. This debate is not therefore semantic, as we disagree over whether the "words of the (Jewish) covenant" apply to Gentiles. I argue they do not, you argue they do. We are not therefore agreed on the basic issue.

Postings
16 Oct - Re: Law of Moses and the Law of God
16 Oct - Re: Moses and the Law of God

Jose writes "By attacking the law as a whole, you seek to destroy principles which are eternal in nature."

Others have argued that if the law is not applicable to Gentiles it will lead to an increase in sin. I have repeatedly pointed out that the New Testament argues that the law causes sin, rather than suppressing it. No one has been able to challenge this interpretation.

Postings
24 Oct "the law" - reply to criticisms
24 Oct - Re: "the law" - "texts" on the ten commandments (posted to Jose)
16 Oct - Re: Law of Moses and the Law of God
9 Oct - Re: Keeping the Sabbath
4 Oct - Re: What Seventh-day Adventist are you?
2 Oct - On Evening and Morning Sabbaths
26 Aug - Re: Do we need to obey the Ten Commandments?

I have frequently argued that we need to look at God’s covenants in the Bible in order to understand the law. After all, the Ten Commandments are "the words of the covenant". However no one has suggested an alternative way to understand covenants which conforms to the Dual Law theory.

Postings
9 Oct - Re: Keeping the Sabbath
2 Oct - On Evening and Morning Sabbaths
26 Aug - Re: Do we need to obey the Ten Commandments?

There have been a number of quotes from Bacchiocchi on keeping the Sabbath. However Bacchiocchi never addresses the question of the law, or looks at the principles involved in Gentiles keeping the Torah. My responses to Bacchiocchi’s arguments have never been denied.

Postings
9 Oct - Re: Keeping the Sabbath
4 Oct - Re: What is Seventh-day Adventism?

Hebrews has a detailed discussion on the law and Christianity, which I have argued confirms my views on the law. No one has responded to these claims.

Postings
9 Oct - Re: Keeping the Sabbath
2 Oct - On Evening and Morning Sabbaths
26 Aug - Re: Do we need to obey the Ten Commandments?