Here are the arguments used against the claim that 'the law' refers to the whole Law of Moses.

## The Bible refers to the 'Law of Moses' and the 'Law of God'

Jose argues that the Bible uses the term 'Law of God' to refer to the Ten Commandments, but 'Law of Moses' to refer to laws other than the Ten Commandments.

Here is what he writes:
<<
John you confuse the Law of Moses and the Law of God. The Law of Moses concerned sacrifices, temple service, ceremonial sabbaths and other laws. The Law of God was given in Exodus chapter 20 by God Himself when he spoke it to the people. Period. Read Exodus chapters 19-21 and you will see it in it's totality. Deut. 1 and onward as well as Levitucus detail this law. Your selective use of the Word Torah to encompass both is not doing just to the translation. The Moral Law given by God and the Ceremonial Law given by Moses are not one and the same.

...

In another posting Jose claims the Bible calls the Ten Commandments "God's Law" in Ex 20 and 21.

<<
As for the tablets read Exodus 20 and 21 you will find that God's Law was written on them. No mystery there John just Scripture.
>>

...

One verse here speaks to what the Law of Moses was in 2 Chron. 23:18 "Then Jehoiada placed the oversight of the temple of the LORD in the hands of the priests, who were Levites, to whom David had made assignments in the temple, to present the burnt offerings of the LORD as written in the Law of Moses, with rejoicing and singing, as David had ordered" There is one example.

Daniel 9:11"All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you. "Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you." That's two and there are many others.
>>

This is slightly off the point. My claim is that the term "the law" refers to the whole of the law, not just the Ten Commandments. Jose is not addressing this point, but instead claiming that the Bible uses two terms for two parts of the law. Nevertheless, we shall look at his claims.

Let's start with Exodus 19-21.

God says to Moses "Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession" (Ex 19:5)

So Moses goes up into Mount Sinai, and the people stay away from the mountain, for "whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death" (Ex 19:12).

Then God speaks to Moses (Ex 20:1-18), although the term "Ten Commandments" is not actually used. Neither is the term "Law of God", which Jose claims this chapter is supposed to define. There is a break at verse 18 because the people tremble with fear and say to Moses "speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die" (Ex 20:19). God then continues talking to Moses, giving him laws of sacrifice, laws on Hebrew servants, personal injuries (Ex 21), protection of property, social responsibility (Ex 22), laws of justice and mercy, sabbath laws, three annual festivals, God's angel will prepare the way for them (Ex 23). Finally in Exodus 24 we read "Moses went and told the people all the LORD'S words and laws" (Ex 24:3). Then Moses reads the Book of the Covenant to the people and they respond "we will do everything the LORD has said; we will obey".

So clearly from Ex 19-21 there is no reference to 'The Law of Moses' and 'The Law of God' or that they are separate or different.

In fact the Ten Commandments are first mentioned in Ex 24:12 "come up to me on the mountain and stay here, and I will give you the tablets of stone, with the law and commands I have written for their instruction". The terms 'Law of Moses' and 'Law of God' are not used here either, however. So Jose's claim that Ex 20 shows that in the giving of the law the terms 'Law of God' is used to refer to the Ten Commandments and 'Law of Moses' to the remainder of the law is incorrect.

Next Jose claims:
"Your selective use of the Word Torah to encompass both is not doing just to the translation."

Jose does not provide any evidence for this claim, but it is a false one. The Old Testament translates 'law' using six different Hebrew terms. Here are the words with the number of times it is translated 'law' in the KJV listed:

18 DATH
4 CHOQ
1 CHAQAQ
1 MITSVAH
1 MISHPAT
215 TORAH

The only possible contender to TORAH meaning Law is DATH, which is always used to refer to the general principle of 'law', as in laws of other nations, for example:

"let it be written in the laws of Persia and Media" (Es 1:19)
"laws of the Medes and Persians" (Dan 6:8)
"laws of Medes and Persians" (Dan 6:12)

TORAH is always the word used in the books of the Law to translate "law".

Jose then gives an example of the term "Law of Moses" used to refer to sacrifices (2 Chron 23:18) and an example of it used to refer to curses (Dan 9:11).

This does not disprove my claim the the term "the law", used many times in the Bible, refers to the whole law. However, what of Jose's claim that when the Bible uses the phrase "Law of God" it refers to the Ten Commandments and when it uses the phrase "Law of Moses" it refers to laws other than the Ten Commandments?

"The king contributed from his own possessions for the morning and evening burnt offerings and for the burnt offerings on the Sabbaths, New Moons and appointed feasts as written in the Law of the LORD" (2 Ki 31:3)

"He ordered the people living in Jerusalem to give the portion due to the priests and Levites so that they could devote themselves to the Law of the LORD" (2 Ki 31:4)

"Ezra... was a teacher well versed in the law of Moses, which the LORD the God of Israel, had given.. For Ezra had devoted himself to the study and observance of the Law of the LORD, and to teaching its decrees and laws in Israel" (Ez 7:6-10)

"We have not kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets. All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you. Therefore the curses and sworn judgements written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us" (Dan 9:10-11)

"Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel" (Mal 4:4)

Looking at this evidence, it is clear that the term "law of Moses" is just another way of refering to "the law". It is sometimes called the "law of Moses" because it was given to Moses (see Mal 4:4), but often the Bible when using the term "law of Moses" also uses the term "the law" when it is clear both terms mean the same thing (see Ez 7:6-10; Dan 9:10-11). The term "Law of God" is not used, however "law of the LORD" is used, and again is another way of referring to "the law" (see 2 Ki 31:3-4) when the term "law of the LORD" refers to what Jose calls the "law of Moses".

Since TORAH, or law, is used 215 times in the Old Testament Jose is not helping us answer the question what does "the law" refer to. However from raising this point about "law of Moses" we have identified the fact that "law of Moses" is just another way of referring to "the law".

## The Ten Commandments are Moral Laws

Jose writes:
<<
Let me give you an example John. Our own laws serve have different purposes. Civil, Criminal, Family etc yet when a person goes to study the study the Law. God himself gave the Moral Law(Ten Commandments) while the civil law he gave through Moses(look at the earlier email I sent you on this subject) That is the difference
>>

I am asking what the term "the law" refers to. If Jose has a Bible text which shows the Ten Commandments are the Moral Law, that might help answer this question. However no such text exists, so Jose simply claiming that it is the moral law does not help us. Someone else may claim they are the binding legal words of the covenant. What individuals claim does not help us understand what the Bible teaches, unless they can show that their claims are supported by Scripture. What Jose is doing is repeating "tradition" - which is a dangerous thing to do.

## Since the Ten Commandments are written on Stone they are eternal

A number of people pick up the point that the Ten Commandments are written on stone, whereas other laws are written on paper. Therefore they claim the Ten Commandments are eternal because stone lasts longer than paper.

Jose writes
<<
The distinction is that God personally wrote this Law on the two stone tablets. The sacrifices, ceremonies and other laws were revealed to Moses to help the people govern there lives in an orderly fashion as well as establish the rituals needed in absence of Jesus.
>>

Jose also adds some similar arguments:
<<
I would call this pretty astonishing events God himself spoke to the people not through Moses but to them.
>>

For God speaking the Ten Commandments directly, it seems God intended to speak all the laws directly but the people couldn't listen, or they would die. So this doesn't seem an argument for making them special.

There are various speculations on why the Ten Commandments were written on stone tablets. Fortunately there is no need to speculate as the Bible tells us why. As Jose reminds us, lets look at Exodus 19. Verse 5 (just before the Ten Commandments are listed) says "now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant". Deuteronomy 5 (where the Ten Commandments are also listed) says "the LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb.. the LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain" (Deut 5:2-4). In Ex 34:28 it says "he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant - the Ten Commandments". In Deut 4:13 it says "he declared to you his covenant, the ten commandments".

This shows that "the law" is a single whole. The detail of the law is given in the written law, but the "legal document" that binds Israel and God is the Ten Commandments. These are literally the "words of the covenant" God makes with Israel.

So we can do away with the speculation that the Ten Commandments are the "moral law" or the "eternal law" or something separate from the rest of the TORAH. The Bible clearly states that they are the "words of the covenant", and this is what makes them special.

## The Law is the Ten Commandments

At last! An answer to my question. Many many people argue that the term "the law" refers to the Ten Commandments. For example in the posting _Does God's Grace Blot out the law?_ the argument to justify referring to "the law" as the Ten Commandments is:

<<
we consider the historical position of Christianity toward the Ten-Commandment law. Almost all of the great denominations have officially placed themselves on record as supporting the authority of that law
>>

In the posting _The Law then and Now_ the same assumption is made. First the giving of the Ten Commandments is quoted from Exodus 20, then a series of texts referring to the law and commandments follows, each assuming the Ten Commandments are being referred to as "the law".

Another posting simply says:
<<
"The law of the Lord is perfect..." Ps 19:
""..thy law is the truth" Ps 119:142
"the law is light" Pro 6:30
"the commandment of the Lord is pure" Ps 19:8
"all thy commandments are faithful" Ps 119:86
"all thy commandments are truth" Ps 119:151
"all thy commandments are righteousness" Ps 119:172
"if ye love me, keep my commandments" Jn 14:15
"sin is the transgression of the law" 1 Jn 3:4

I don't see how any of this could be said of the ceremonial law.

arth
>>

Clearly none of these arguments actually show that the Ten Commandments are "the law". The first argument relies wholly on tradition. The second simply assumes "the law" must mean the Ten Commanments, and the third cannot see how the TORAH could be said to be "perfect", "truth", "light" etc.

Let us simply look at what the Bible says "the law" is.

"what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today" (Deut 4:8)

"This is the law Moses set before the Israelites. These are the stipulations, decrees and laws Moses gave them when they came out of Egypt" (Deut 4:44-45)

"These are the commands, decrees and laws the LORD your God directed me to teach you to observe" (Deut 6:1)

"Be careful to follow every command I am giving you today, so that you may live and increase" (Deut 8:1)

"Love the LORD your God and keep his requirements, his decrees , his laws and his commands always" (Deut 11:1)

"Observe all the commands I am giving you today" (Deut 11:8)

"The LORD your God commands you this day to follow these decrees and laws" (Deut 26:16)

The books of the Law ends with Moses writing down all the laws in a book.

"So Moses wrote down this law and gave it to the priests, the sons of Levi" (Deut 31:9)

"Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you.. Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth" (Josh 1:7-8)

"He built it according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses" (Josh 8:31)

"Afterwards Joshua read all the words of the law - the blessings and curses - just as it is written in the Book of the Law" (Josh 8:34)

"But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the LORD gave you: to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to obey his commands, to hold fast to him and to serve him with all your heart and all your soul" (Josh 22:5)

"Yet Jehu was not careful to keep the law of the LORD, the God of Israel" (2 Ki 10:31)

"Turn from your evil ways. Observe my commands and decrees, in accordance with the entire Law that I commanded your fathers to obey and that I delivered to you through my servants the prophets" (2 Ki 17:13)

"When the LORD made a covenant with the Israelites he commanded them: 'Do not worship any other gods or bow down to them, serve them or sacrifice to them.. You must always be careful to keep the decrees and ordinances, the laws and commands he wrote for you. Do not worship other gods. Do not forget the covenant I made with you, and do not worship other gods" (2 Ki 17:35-38)

".. if only they will be careful toto do everything I commanded themand keep the whole Law that my servant Moses gave them" (2 Ki 21:8)

"I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the LORD" (2 Ki 22:8)

"This he did to fulfil the requirements of the law written in the book Hilkia the priest had discovered in the temple of the LORD. Neither before nor after Josiah was there a king like him who turned to the LORD as he did - with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his strength, in accordance with all the Law of Moses" (2 Ki 23:24)

".. to present burnt offerings to the LORD on the later of burnt offering regularly, morning and evening, in accordance with everything written in the Law of the LORD, which he had given Israel" (1 Chon 16:40)

David says to Solomon in 1 Chron 22:12-13: "May the LORD give you discretion and understanding when he puts you in command over Israel, so that you may keep the law of the LORD your God. Then you will have success if you are careful to observe the decrees and laws the LORD gave to Moses for Israel."

"So on the first day of the seventh month, Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly, which was made up of men and women and all who were able to understand. He read aloud from daybreak until noon as he faced the square.. and all the people listened attentively to the Book of the Law". (Neh 8:2-3)

For further references I will re-post my original discussion on "the law" which contains more quotes.

From these references it is clear that "the law" refers to all the laws given as part of the covenant between God and Israel. There are no references to it being only the Ten Commandments.

## Jesus quoted the Ten Commandments

Jose sites this text but does not explain what he thinks it means:

<<

Let's look at this same God talking about this later in Mark 10:17 "17
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
19
You know the commandments: `Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' [4]"
20
"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

Interesting how These are Jesus's words not mine or Ellen White. Christ himself quoting the Ten Commandments. I am curious did this same God change his mind..

Food for thought, John
>>

There is nothing strange about this. Jesus is quoting the law - every Jew believed you had to keep the law to gain eternal life, this is what the promises and curses in the laws stated. The fact that he is quoting the Ten Commandments - a part of the law - is also nothing unusual. The Ten Commandments were the "words of the covenant" the binding agreement between God and Israel.

## Jesus Kept the Sabbath

Jose writes:

<<
These the Sabbath is one of those Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20. I don't think that Jesus would have to repeat that to a person who was already an Israelite. Jesus does make a other statements on the Sabbath however.

Matthew 12:8 "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Or this verse in Luke 4:16 "He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read."

Christ is our perfect example. It was his custom to go to Church not on Sunday but on the Sabbath(7th day).

His example is good enough for me.
>>

Jesus was a Jew, so there is nothing unusual about his keeping the Sabbath. He was also circumcised, is "his example" good enough for you here also?

Luke 2:21-24 "On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus.. When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the LORD (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, "Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord") and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: "a pair of doves or two young pigeons"

Jesus, however did not keep the Sabbath as an evening and morning Sabbath, but kept the Sabbath as we keep it today. See my "Evening and Morning Sabbaths" for details on this.

## Jesus distinguishes between the Ten Commandments and the rest of the law

Jose argues:
<<
Let me show what Christ says about the law of Moses. Mathew 19:7-9

7
"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
8
Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
9
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Notice verse 7 Jesus said that Moses commanded a writ of divorce given in the law of Moses. Look at verse 9. He tells us that it wasn't that way in the beginning. Further stating that anyone divorcing for any other reason commits adultery. A direct reference to the Ten Commandments given in Exodus Chapter 20.

Christ makes a clear distinction.
>>

If you read slightly earlier Jesus is quoting another book of the law, Genesis:

Mark 19:4-6 "Haven't you read", he replied, that at the beginning the Creator 'made then male and female' and said 'for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.

It is interesting that Jesus is using the traditional Jewish books of the law: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. Although "the law" is only given in the last four, the Jewish "Scripture" calls the first five books of the Bible the books of the law (in the KJV they are called "The First Book of Moses", "The Second Book of Moses" etc). In disputing matters of law, it would be these books which would be quoted. Another example is the resurrection - Jesus quotes from the books of the law to justify belief in the resurrection, even though other books in the Old Testament provide better examples.

With reference to the claim that Jesus uses the Ten Commandments to dispute with the Pharisees over the adultry claims, this is clearly not true, from the text just cited. Jesus uses the book of Genesis to clarify the "the law".

## Jesus quotes the law

Jose writes:
<<
John that is certainly your opinion. The Scripture is clear however, fyi. Christ is quoting Lev 19:18 ""`Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD."
>>

This is interesting - Jesus is asked "which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" and he does not reply by quoting one of the Ten Commandments (how do those who believe "the law" refers to the Ten Commandments explain this?) but instead quotes from the TORAH. For those unclear about the "translation" of law, here are the greek words translated:

1 agoraios
183 nomos
1 nomikos
1 paranomeo
1 krima
3 krino
1 nomotheteo (receive the law)
1 anomia (lawlessness)
1 ennomos (under the)
4 anomos (without law)

"nomos" is the equivalent to TORAH. So there is no "translation" problem here.

## Paul refers to the "God's law" and the "law of sin"

Jose argues that Paul claims in Romans 7 that there are two laws, "God's law" and the "law at work in the members of my body"

<<
Romans 7:23"but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

Notice the Word another in the preceding verse. Last time I checked another means distinctly different from some other or the first. Paul then goes on to compare the war going on against God's law that was in his mind and the law of sin. They cannot be the same Law by definition By the way the 'Book' that I am taking these quotes from is called the Bible. The author of Lev. is Moses the author of Romans is Paul.
>>

Paul is giving his usual argument that the law causes sin in Romans 7. He describes the "good" commandment actually causing sinful desire. Not because the commandment is sinful, but because it awakens the sinful nature in the body. To make his point, Paul describes the sinful desire as being another law, which he calls the "law of sin" (Rom 7:24). However there is no mention that this "law of sin" is the law of Moses, or the law apart from the Ten Commandments - this is totally against Paul's line of argument. His point is that a commandment to do good - and the Old Testament says the law is good, read Ps 119 - does not give one the power to keep that commandment.

## Revelation says "keep the Commandments"

Rev 14:12 refers to the saints to obey God's commandments.

The Gospel of John opposes "the law" with Jesus new "commandments". This is the only book to do this systematically. However when John in Revelation refers to "commandments" we know from the Gospel that the commandments referred to are Jesus new "commandments", not the law.

See also my "Evening and Morning Sabbaths" for a much more detailed look at the Third Angel's Message on the Sabbath.

################################################

That is the end of the arguments presented.

I'll just make one final point. The Old Testament has 239 references to law, and according to my NIV 1104 pages. The New Testament has 198 references to law, and only 321 pages. The Old Testament can go through whole books without mentioning the law, in other books it appears occasionally, in some books it is mentioned a lot. In the New Testament every book is full of the law. There is discussion on whether the law needs to be kept by the gentiles, or what laws need to be kept, what is the purpose of the law, what is the status of the law for Christians. In all these discussions, the solution proposed by Traditional Adventists - the Ten Commandments need to be kept by Christians - is never mentioned. Why? Because the Ten Commandments were not treated differently to the rest of "the law", they were part of the covenant, the same as the rest of the law. Some people have also argued that we need to law to define sin. Again, Paul very frequently encourages believers to high standards of behaviour. Not once, in all these writings on Christian behaviour, does he say keep the Ten Commandments, or use the Ten Commandments to justify Christian behaviour.

Finally, this discussion appears negative - it is attacking a Traditional Adventist doctrine. However its purpose is positive. Seventh-day Adventism is the completion of the Reformation. How can it be the completion when it still holds doctrines on the law inherited from the Catholic church and not from the Bible? Adventism has changed doctrines before and can do so again, truth is not something to be afraid of.