-----Original Message-----
From: Jose Hernandez
To: John Mann
Date: 25 October 1998 21:46
Subject: Re: "the law" - "texts" on the ten commandments
>
>But John you confuse the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses. The law of
>Moses was written by him to help the people understand God and apply God'd
>will in there lives. The Ten Commandments was written and spoken by God
>himself as I have shown you in my previous mails.
Are you able to show the difference? The Ten Commandments are the "words of
the covenant" (Ex 34:28). Do you disagree with this? God makes a covenant
with Israel and signs it - the Ten Commandments. Do you disagree with God
signing the covenant? The Ten Commandments are placed in the ark of the
covenant. Do you disagree with this? The Bible says repeatedly that the Ten
Commandments are the words of the covenant, that the law is the covenant
between God and Israel. Nowhere does it say the Ten Commandments are
anything other than the words of the covenant, the signed agreement by God.
I agree with your statement "the Ten Commandments was written and spoken by
God", but you fail to address why they were written by God - because he was
signing an agreement - the covenant. Until you address this question you
will not understand that the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses are part
of the same thing - the covenant.
So to summarise.
I follow what the Bible teaches about the Ten Commandments and the Law of
Moses.
I have shown ample proof from the Bible that this is what the Bible teaches.
You are unable to refute the fact that the Ten Commandments are the "words
of the covenant".
How then am I the one who confuses the Ten Commandments and the Law of
Moses?
Until you can show Biblical evidence for your theories, I will remain of the
opinion that you are simply following human tradition rather than the word
of God.
>
>Notice what Christ says in Mark 10:1-10
>
>1
>Jesus then left that place and went into the region of Judea and across the
>Jordan. Again crowds of people came to him, and as was his custom, he
taught
>them.
>2
>Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to
>divorce his wife?"
>3
>"What did Moses command you?" he replied.
>
>Notice how the Pharisees start to question about Mosaic Law asking about a
>writ of divorcement. Look closely at verse 4
You have introduced your own concepts here which confuses your reading of
it. The "Mosaic Law" is part of the covenant, which is part of the TORAH.
The questioning about the law is part of a general theme in the gospels,
carried on in Mark 10:17-31 (Rich Young Ruler); 12:18-27 (Marriage and the
Resurrection), 12:28-34 (The Greatest Commandment) etc in which Jesus shows
that the written regulations of the law are insufficient, it is the
inner-law, the law of the heart that counts. The Ten Commandments are still
written law, which Jesus is preaching are not enough.
>4
>They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and
send
>her away."
>
>Notice how this is not in the Ten Commandments
>
>5
>"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus
>replied.
>
>Look at what Jesus says. It was because "your hearts were hard" referring
>to the Children of Israel
Yes, Jesus is showing the limitations of the TORAH. However also note that
he is not opposing one written law (Mosaic written law) for another written
law (Ten Commandments) but the TORAH, the written law as a whole is being
shown to be insufficient. This is the moral of much of Jesus teaching:
Mark 10:1-12 (Divorce):
TORAH: The TORAH allows divorce, but this is not enough.
Limitation of the TORAH: ideally (from the beginning) two become one and so
should not divorce.
Mark 10:17-31 (Rich Young Ruler);
TORAH: The Rich Young Ruler keeps the commandments (and those quoted are the
Ten Commandments) but this not enough.
Limitation of the TORAH: sell all you have and give to the poor.
12:18-27 (Marriage and the Resurrection),
TORAH: What will happen in the resurrection, since the law allows
remarriage.
Limitation of the TORAH: in heaven there is no marriage
12:28-34 (The Greatest Commandment)
TORAH: Love the Lord with all your heart, soul and strength and your
neighbour as yourself, this "is more important than all burnt offerings and
sacrifices"
Limitation of the TORAH: Jesus sees that the teacher of the law understands
the "heart" is most important, more than sacrifices.
This comes out even more clearly in the Sermon on the Mount:
Matt 5:21 (Murder)
TORAH: Do not murder.
Limitation of the TORAH: do not even get angry.
Matt 5:27 (Adultery)
TORAH: Do not commit adultery.
Limitation of the TORAH: do not even lust.
Matt 5:31 (Divorce)
TORAH: Divorce with a certificate of Divorce
Limitation of the TORAH: only divorce because of marital unfaithfulness
Matt 5:33 (Oaths)
TORAH: Do not break your oath
Limitation of the TORAH: do not even make an oath
Matt 5:38 (Justice)
TORAH: An eye for an eye
Limitation of the TORAH: do not resist an evil person
Matt 5:43 (Enemies)
TORAH: Love your neighbour
Limitation of the TORAH: Love your enemies
So to read this episode as Jesus comparing the "Mosaic Law" and the Ten
Commandments is to misunderstand a fundamental part of Jesus whole message.
>.
>Now watch how Jesus takes them to the Beginning
>
>6
>"But at the beginning of creation God `made them male and female.' [1]
>
>.
>7
>`For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to
his
>wife, [2]
>8
>and the two will become one flesh.' [3] So they are no longer two, but one.
>9
>Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
>10
>When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this.
>11
>He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman
commits
>adultery against her.
>12
>And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits
>adultery."
>
Notice how he doesn't take them to the Ten Commandments.
>Notice it verse 12 he takes us to Exodus 20:14
>
>"You shall not commit adultery"
You are muddling the whole point of this. Jesus refers to adultery in the
context of showing the TORAH is not enough. He compares the TORAH with how
it should ideally be "at the beginning".
The Ten Commandments are the basic principles of the TORAH. Ex 20:14 forbids
adultery, but doesn't define it - the rest of the TORAH does that. Similarly
Ex 20:13 simply says "you shall not murder", but doesn't define what
distinguishes killing from murder - you have to read the rest of the TORAH
for the detail. What Jesus is doing is showing the limitations of the TORAH.
>
>With these statements in Mark Jesus is clearly trying to teach, not just
the
>Pharisees but all that were congregated what God's Law truly meant.
Well, I agree that he is showing the inner nature of the law, but that isn't
the Ten Commandments - these are still the "outer" written part of the law.
>
>I asked you in a earlier mail what sin had Cain committed when when he
>murdered his brother. A simple request which still hasn't received an
>answer. If the Ten Commandments only came into validity on Mt. Sinai, what
>sin did Cain commit?
>
Actually I have replied to this on 24 Oct, 20 Oct, 9 Oct and 26 Aug,
however I have no objection to repeating myself.
We don't know what law God gave to Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, because the
Bible doesn't tell us. We could equally speculate on what sin Cain committed
when he offered "some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD"
(Gen 4:3). The answer is, the Bible doesn't tell us the laws God gave them.
However (and this is the point I have made in earlier mails) we know it
wasn't the TORAH, since (although this deals with sacrifices and murder) the
Bible tells us "it was not with our fathers that the LORD made this
covenant" (Deut 5:3).
>It's is obvious then that thee Ten Commandments were given beforehand. As
>evidenced in Mark these Commandments come from the Beginning itself. This
>is Christ's teaching. It is what I have learned through careful study of
>the Word of God.
Mark certainly doesn't say the Ten Commandments came in from the beginning!
On the contrary, the Ten Commandments are often cited by Jesus in his
"TORAH" part of contrasting the inner and outer law. You might think it is
"obvious" but since Deut 5:3 says otherwise I prefer to believe the Bible
rather than you.
John