-----Original Message-----
From: John Mann 
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.adventist
Date: 13 December 1998 18:22
Subject: Re: Law of Moses and the Law of God


>
>Here is my response.
>
><<
>Re: Law of Moses and Law of God.
>
>John, Nov. 3/98 we have been discussing Gods eternal Law, the Ten
>Commandments and Moses Law.
>Those three Quotes of yours did disturb me so I had to answer you.
>You are stating that:
>1.) "10 Commandments are to be treated the same as the rest of the law"
>2.) "The term "the law" is used, not 10 Commandments"
>3.) "I have a feeling the eternal spiritual laws of God are much more than
>"the" law which was nailed to the cross (10 commandments included) since to
>the Jews, the Law is the Torah.
>1.) When we think of the law of God, we discover it is the only part of
>Scripture God did not trust man to write. Exodus 31:18, "And he gave unto
>Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two
>tables of testimony, (10 Commandments) tables of stone, written with the
>finger of God."
>That ought to make it important, Written on the tables of stone, why?
>Because, it shall remain forever!
>Psalms 111:7,8 The works of his hands are verity and judgement; all his
>commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and aver, and are done in
>truth and uprightness.  If it will remain forever, how can the 10
>Commandment of God be same as the rest of the law, that Jesus nailed to the
>cross?
>>>
>
>Of course! This is the point of my posting, the Law does remain forever.
The
>Dual Law theorists try to split it in two and keep one part and lose the
>other. What I am saying that the "the law" does remain forever. If you read
>the Old Testament you will find plenty of references to the law standing
>forever and the writer is referring to the Torah, not the Ten Commandments.
>
><<
>2.) "The term "the law" is used, not 10 commandments" – John what are you
>saying? That the 10 Commandments of God is not a Law?
>>>
>
>My point is to not split the law in two.
>
><<
> Gods Law?  James 2:10-12 for whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet
>offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, do not commit
>adultery, said also, do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if
>thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. (Hear he points out
>the 10 Commandments)! So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged
>by the law of liberty. Hear you Quote Lev. 19:18 –"Ye shall keep my
statues,
>Thou shall not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy
>people, but thou shall love thy neighbor as thy self: I am the Lord". Yes
>John you are right, we shall love our neighbor as our self, it is belonging
>to the law of liberty.
>In Matt. 22:35-40 Jesus said to the lawyer who asked him a question,
>tempting him. Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said
>to him, Thou should love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all
>thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
>And the second is like unto it, thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. On
>these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.  John God’s 10
>Commandments were written on two tables of stone. On one table were
>commandments 1-4 and on other table commandments 5-10. Commandments 1-4
>refers how shall we love God, and Commandments 5-10 refers how shall we
love
>our neighbors.
>>>
>
>The Ten Commandments were the words of the Covenant. Little wonder they
>summarize that Covenant.
>
><<
>3.) Law that was given by God to Moses is the Torah, it is written in the
>Book of the law which is the Torah, this law was nailed to the cross by
>Jesus, because it did point to the Lamb of God that was Jesus.
>John you ERR! You are combining God’s 10 Commandment laws with the
>Ceremonial laws, in one Law.
>>>
>
>What are you saying? The Torah is the ceremonial law? All those references
>to the law in the Old Testament refer to the ceremonial law? Surely not!
>
><<
>YOU ERR!  I hope that the verses in Rom.11: 8 were not referring to you.
God
>hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and
>ears that they should not hear. And in Is. 29:10,11,13 For the Lord had
>poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and had closed your eyes. And
>the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed,
>which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee:
>and he said, I cannot; for it is sealed. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch
>as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor
>me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is
>taught by the precept of men. John, can you explain me what is the
>"Eternal spiritual laws of God"?
>>>
>
>Read the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus takes a quote from the Torah and shows
>its Spiritual meaning.
>
><<
>Hear is the real issue. The two sides warring for the control of your WILL.
>One side is Antichrist- the other Jesus Christ. Antichrist has changed and
>done away with God’s Laws, and our world is filled with its results: war,
>crime, immorality, profanity, stealing, lying and murder. Most of the world
>is following the Antichrist. Jesus Christ stands on the other side,
inviting
>us, " If you love me keep my commandments" those who follow live a life of
>peace, with happy, sable home. Honesty and purity are taught, regard for
the
>sanctity of life is upheld, speech is cultured, and good solid citizens are
>made who are fit for heaven. Love for Christ makes commandment keeping a
>joy! And as we conform to this standard, we become more like the One it
>reflects- Jesus Christ. David prayed in Psalm 119:97 "O how I love thy Law"
>And Solomon summed it up in Eccles.12: 13 "Let us hear the conclusion of
the
>whole matter: Fear God and keep his commandments: for this is the whole
duty
>of man".
>>>
>
>Here is the real issue - do we follow God or man? Do we follow Scripture or
>human tradition? The Dual Law theory is human tradition. The Bible has one
>law, not two.
>
><<
>John! Did you read the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation? Did you
>read Daniel 7:25  "And he shall speak great words against the most High,
and
>shall THINK TO CHANGE TIMES AND LAWS: and they shall be given in to his
hand
>until a time and times and the dividing of times." Why is that to "THINK TO
>CHANGE TIMES AND LAWS", if God’s moral Law of the 10 Commandments has been
>done away with, and we are not under the Law? Rev. 12:17 "And the dragon
was
>wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
>which keep the Commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus
Christ."
>Rev.14: 12  "Hear is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep
the
>Commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Hear Apostle John speaks
about
>the saints who live in a Last days of the world History, who keep God’s Law
’
>s and have the same fait that Jesus had. Jesus Christ did his Father WILL
>and he magnified the Law and made it honorable. Is.42: 21 and Is. 43: 25 I,
>even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and
>will not remember thy sins. And David said in Psalm 138: 2 "I will worship
>toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy loving-kindness and for
>thy THUTH: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Paul lived
>after Jesus Christ and hi said, " I delight in the Law of God" Rom.7: 22,
CF
>verse 7, how can Paul delight in God’s Law if it is done with it and if it
>is nailed to the cross? John Mann You ERR!
>>>
>
>Hang on, I don’t say the law is done away with and nailed to the cross! The
>law stands forever. As to changing times and laws, the Dual Law theory you
>support does that. The Bible speaks of "the law" - one law, while you
CHANGE
>it to two.  You’re the one erring.
>
><<
> Do not go after your imaginations or after the commandments of man.  God’s
>Law is a wonderful blessing! The more you come into harmony with it, the
>happier you will be. In the last minutes of the world history, when man is
>trying to do away with God’s Law, the Beast and those that follow him stand
>on one side. On the other side stands God’s truth-filled, commandment
>keeping saints, and in one blow the Beast and his followers are defeated.
>Jesus said, " If you love me keep my commandments".  Did you ever-wonder
why
>is so many church building out FOR SALE or on the Action Block?  One of the
>Ministers explained why!
>>>
>
>Right - Christians must obey the law, "keep my commandments". But you’re
>throwing away most of the law, saying it is done away with. The "ceremonial
>law" is not a Scriptural term, the Bible just uses the term "the law".
>
><<
>"Preachers across the World just quit their jobs and closed their churches,
>due to a false teaching, they themselves promoted. It goes something like
>this.  The law is done away with, it’s not binding, and has been nailed to
>the cross and abolished! Since the preachers did away with the law they
also
>did away with sin, since "sin is the transgression of the law," 1 John 3:
4.
>And now that no one in church has sin they don’t need grace, which is
pardon
>for sin, which is breaking the law. And since the members don’t need grace
>they sure don’t need Christ and it’s obvious Christ came down here and died
>for nothing. And now without Christ who died that we might have grace,
which
>is pardon for sin which is breaking the law, the preachers no longer have a
>gospel to preach, for the gospel is the story of Christ, who died that we
>might have grace which is pardon for sin which is breaking the law.
>>>
>
>Well since I’m not arguing the law is done away with I haven’t got much to
>say here. However since you argue that the ceremonial law is "done away
>with" and the Bible says God’s law will stand forever, aren’t you breaking
>the law?
>
><<
>So since there is no gospel to preach the preachers just preached
themselves
>right out of a job and figured they might as well get rid of the church.
>Think about it! That’s why is so many church building out on the action
>block, or For Sale!
> In the Book "Now that’s CLEAR" (From Leo Schreven) " When truth comes it
>often hurts. Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and
>sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of
>soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the
>thought and intents of the heart." Then truth of God’s Word will cut across
>all the sentimental froth of what is called Christianity today. It quickly
>discerns who is really a true Christian and who isn’t. It reveals who is
>willing to do God’s WILL, and who is just playing church.
>The great message to prepare our generation for Christ’s coming is found in
>Rev.14: 6-10. The last phrase of verse 7 directs our attention to the
>subject of worship. "Saying with a laud voice, Fear God, and give glory to
>him; for the hour of his judgement is come: and worship him that made
>heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." In the final
>hour of earth’s history a message is to go to the world to "worship Him
that
>made heaven and earth." The obvious problem we are dealing with then in
>Revelation is the difference between Revelation 14:7 and verse, "Saying
with
>a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his
judgement
>is come: and WORSHIP HIM THAT MADE HEAVEN, AND EARTH,
>And the sea, and the fountains of waters. And the third angle followed
them,
>saying with a loud voice, IF ANY MAN WORSHIP THE BEAST AND HIS IMAGE, and
>receive his mark in his forehead, or his hand." One "worship Him who made"
>the other "worships the Beast." The entire world including you will be on
>one side or the other. The shocking reality is that God says in Rev. 13: 3,
>8 " all the world" is worshiping and following the beast! So today, if we
>find an area in which all the world follows the beast instead of the Bible,
>it should not surprise us, for God has told us it would be so.
>
>Since the message of Rev.14: 7 say to "worship Him that made heaven and
>earth, " let’s go back to the beginning when God made everything.
>In Genesis 1:1, we read, "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the
>earth." On the first day, He created light; second day, air; third day,
>water and vegetation; fourth day, sun, moon, and stars; fifth day, birds
and
>fish; sixth day, animals and the crowning act of creation-man and woman.
>Here in Genesis 1 we have the first six days of the history of the world.
>All was good and complete, created for man’s enjoyment and sustenance,
>gleaming in its Edenic perfection. And now we come to the first seventh day
>of the history of the world. Genesis 2:1-3, " Thus the heavens and the
earth
>were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended
>his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his
>work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
>because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and
>made." God created the Sabbath day.
>>>
>
>Well my posting didn’t deny any of this. Are you sure you’ve read it?
>
><<
>This day was set aside as a memorial of His creation. David said in Psalm
>111:2-4 that God made His works to be remembered. " The works of the Lord
>are great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein. His work is
>honorable and glorious: and his righteousness endureth for ever. He hath
>made his wonderful work to be remembered: the Lord is gracious and full of
>compassion." God Himself said it and wroth it in His Law. Exodus 20:8-11
>"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and
>do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in
>it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy
>manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is
>within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heavens and the earth, the
>sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the
Lord
>blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it." Notice that the fourth
>commandment is a direct quote of Revelation 14:7. So the message God wants
>to send to the whole world in the last days simply calls the world’s
>attention back to the fourth commandments.
>God says "Remember!" Why? Because He knew we might forget! And it’s amazing
>that the only one of the 10 commandments He said remember, the world has
>forgotten! Furthermore, the Sabbath is a sign of our love relationship with
>Jesus. Ezekiel 20:20, " And hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign
>between me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God." Now the
>devil knows full well the meaning of the Sabbath. Every time God has given
>something as a blessing, the devil has come up with a counterfeit. That’s
>his trademark. God gave the Sabbath, and the devil knew that the Sabbath
>honored God above all the other commandments. So in order to detract from
>the worship of the true God, and nullify everything that honors God, he
>twisted and misconstrued things so much that today most of the sincere
>Christian world is breaking the Sabbath day and don’t’ even know it! This
is
>also why the devil teaches that the law has been done away with. Yet
>interestingly enough, most of those who teach this, still keep nine of the
>10 commandments! One commandment bothers them, and in an effort to set
aside
>the fourth commandment, they do away with the whole law."
>>>
>
>So you want to make the Sabbath an "evening and morning Sabbath"? What does
>God say? Was the first Sabbath marked by an "evening and a morning"? For
>each of the other days it says "evening and morning" but not the Seventh
>day. I’m sure Satan would like us to forget Scripture and go along with
>human reason, and think that because the first six days had evenings and
>mornings then so must the Seventh - but look at the Bible and read what it
>says! The Sabbath, God’s rest, is not part of human time, but is without
>evening and morning. The true Sabbath is the one described in Hebrews - let
>us enter God’s rest! Is this a rest of human creation or God’s true rest? I
>only want to enter God’s rest "come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy
>laden and I will give you rest".
>
><<
>
>1,000 YEARS OF SABBATH REST
>
>A.) There are 365 days and six hours in one year.
>B.) In this there are exactly 52.17857 Sabbaths a year.
>C.) Multiply 52.17857 Sabbaths a year times 6,000. Years of earth’s history
>and you have a total of 313,071.43 Sabbaths. Satan has broken each one and
>caused man to break them to.
>D.) During the millenium Satan is bound for 1,000. Years.  Sin will cease,
>1,000. Years of rest and peace.
>E.) During the millenium there will be 52,178.57 literal seventh day
>Sabbaths.
>F.) During the millenium there are 365,250 literal days.
>G.) Subtract the literal Sabbath days, from the amount of literal days.
>365,250.00
>
>                                         -52,178.57
>
>313,071.43
>The remainder is 313,071.43; The exact same number of Sabbaths in 6,000.
>years of earth’s history. Satan will also have to rest these days to make
up
>for every one he has broken.
>
>To order the Book  "NOW THAT’S CLEAR" from Leo  Schreven  you can order
from
>Hart Research Center, P.O.Box 2377 Fallbrook, Ca 92088      or    Tel:
(619)
>723-8082
>
>
>>>
>
>OK, so this is an advert for a book, not a response to my posting!
>
>This numeric speculation is not Adventism.
>
>John
>
>
>
>
>